danga
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This is just pathetic
i am just trying to toss a topic out there, is pirating movies/music theft?
Romans 12:10 |
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DanB
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Yes. I believe so. It is preventing artists, record companies who pay them, producers, and ENGINEERS from collecting royalties. Even artists that have
died. I feel that those who invested in the artist deserve to benefit from their fruits.
Honestly, I don't really care about movies...haha...(not my field)
Morally wrong but I think it's partially the music industry's fault for not providing better solutions to the problem.
I think if thee was less pirating there would be better music readily available to the public.
Whadaya think danga?
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danga
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I agree that it is theft, but i think that it lies somewhere in the middle of stealing from a homeless man and stealing medicine for a sick family
member. It is wrong, although all it does is damage an industry that is thriving, giving it little consequences, but since it is done for selfish
entertainment i believe there is an utter lack of reason. With that said i think the punishments should be about equivalent to those of stealing a
small item from a store.
Romans 12:10 |
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jent
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DanB
Yes. I believe so. It is preventing artists, record companies who pay them, producers, and ENGINEERS from collecting royalties.
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I am in the middle...but I think there is some solid opposition that nether of you have touched on.
1) it only prevents royalties _IF_ that person was going to purchase the media otherwise....I would argue based on what I have read is that,
downloading something really does not prevent sales. Often if that person was to purchase the album, and he downloads it...if the album is still good
I am sure that most the time the individual still will buy the album. Just because someone downloaded media does not mean that they would have
otherwise purchased the album. I will say in this respect, free media has caused the industry to look at producing more complete and fully quality
products. For the reason being that if someone downloads it, and it sucks, they will NEVER buy the media. So it helps promote quality of work in
that sense.
2) if you accept that the amount of damages to royalties are fairly low, then you can also make the argument: it does not hurt anyone. Peer to peer
does not mean that any individual server or service has to maintain the load. But instead it is distributed and does not hurt any single
individual.
3) Most important, I think we should look at: Just because it is available for free, does not mean you can't make money!!!. You can
look at so many markets, and see where even though people have the product available for free, they still pay for one reason or another. For example:
water....just because you can get water from any watering fountain, or at home, for free, people still pay insane amounts for this product. The
reason that water can be sold and yet be free....two models that can work for media also: quality and convince.....you can get better quality media,
and easier, then people will pay for it. If you are thinking "well that's great for a tangible product, but what about this...."...there are lots
of software companies that do the same thing.
My point:
Downloading media does not necessarily hurt anyone, and those who it hurts worse, are those who deserve it. My point is stop trying to take the easy
way out. Instead what the industry needs to be doing is focusing on the much harder questions. How to make the product, the price point, the
quality, and ease of access, come to a level that can compete. It can be done, it just takes work and effort.
I face the same situation in my industry. Software is pirated just as much as music. But with some forward thinking, and some effort, you can
realize that peer to peer really does posses a threat.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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9ofclubs
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I completely agree with Jent on all of his points.
First, if a band is signed to a big record company than i am all for pirating that music because the record companies are pricks and they are really
the ones screwing the musicians. That being said, if they put out good music and you truly want to support them, buy the cd directly from the band
when you goto their show. This is the most important part, IHMO. GOING to shows is the best way to support you favorite band and get them money. But
it is more specific than that. You must purchase merch directly from the band in order to really support them. There is one better way to support your
favorite band and that is to give them the money directly when you goto their show. If you give their merch guy, or them if you can, the money
directly then it goes right in their pockets and help them directly. I say pirate the cd then pay them directly for it, so they get all the money for
their work. If you buy any of their merch they will probably only see a cut of it. This goes for the cd s as well. Most bands see very little from cd
sales, especially if they are on a large label. Most of it gets eaten up by debts that they are in, the labels loan them money for tours and equipment
and studio time which has to be payed back.
I speak now as an artist my self. DOWNLOAD MY MUSIC. i am a huge fan of Creative Commons and i believe that all of Luxury Yacht, the band i play/ed
in, is under CC. The more people that listen to your music the more people that will probably come to your shows. The best way for more people to
listen to your music? Give it away for free.
Also i am not sure about what DanB has said about royalties. I am not extremely versed on this aspect since i have only produced our own stuff and
recorded at friends houses, but i do not believe the engineers get royalties for their work. They produce the music and get payed studio time for it,
WHICH is not cheap, and then they get their name on the product which helps generate more business. I have not heard, although once again i am not an
expert on this, of engineers getting paid royalties. The way i thought it worked was that Record companies and the holder of the rights to the music
get royalties and that is it. Otherwise one would have to pay royalties to so many people it would not be worth it. Once again i am not sure on this
one so please correct me if i am wrong.
Fuck the record companies, at least the large ones. They suck the life out of everything they touch and they are the reason for the state of music,
Just look at BrokenCyde for proof of this. I also blame the fans of them as well.
P.s. Danga, i love your signature.
veQDuj 'oH Dujllj'e' |
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danga
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I just want to say, "hypothetically," that if i were pirating music/movies i would never buy the actual album/dvd. Part of this is because, as you
all have already stated before, i believe my support doesn't go efficiently towards the cause because of the middle men. Although i would be a liar
if i am not primarily out to help myself (financially with free downloads), especially if i cannot see those i hurt (large corporation shares damage,
so no individual is targeted, thus limiting guilt.)
PS: thank you
Romans 12:10 |
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jent
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Well danga...that is a huge problem that should be fixed by the industry to discourage downloading. There are lots of reasons that companies can give
to encourage people to buy them. That is one of them.
But I think it is also important to not take this lightly. Quiet frankly stopping downloading is a war that can never be won. Peer to peer is easy,
and will always be. You just can stop it, as it gets more and more distributed...there are less and less big players that can be shut down. You just
can't attack everyone at once.
So instead of killing an industry by fighting an impossible battle. Instead they should be looking for real solutions. Solutions that will actually
work.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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jent
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no one cares to comment further?
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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Aero
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all right Jent, I'll comment.
Downloading/pirating/ripping ect is stealing. You are stealing someones work and in most cases art work, I don't think that you can argue that.
That being said, we are living in fast changing times. Technology allows for so much new media to be produced, and allowed to be illegally obtained at
the same time.
As far as the music issues goes, Jent you are 100% right about the music industry being the major culprit. There are so many thousands of bands out
there, and only a very very slim number of them ever make any money, but the ones that do, make ridiculous amounts of it. The Industry takes a couple
of names and pumps them up to insane amount of attention, while leaving everyone else to be completely unheard of. Just the way that the record
companies have deals with the radio stations limits to the number of bands playing on the radio to just a couple. And they play the same stuff over
and over and over again.
The movie and TV industry has a much more level playing field, although the large movie studios can pull a huge amount of weight. Probably 4 out of 5
guests on TV talk shows are promoting movies.
Allright, that was a random tangent there, back to my point.
Downloading a bands music is stealing, no questions. However, because of the way the music industry is, sometimes illegal downloads are the only want
to discover new music. You can't turn on the radio to find a new band, so where do you go? Well, illegal downloads are a really good way to discover
a new group. I don't find this to really be a big problem.
Here is the problem I see. So, you find a new band that you really like, and you download all of their music. There is no motivation to actually buy a
CD or download any iTunes, or do anything that would financially support the band. The internet makes it so easy to get all the free music you want,
you almost feel dumb paying for it.
Personally, I still buy CD's and I do it on a regular basis. I will also buy concert tickets as well.
A question I have always had is, do bands make more money selling CD's or iTunes? I imagine it might be the iTunes, but I personally like have the
hard copy. I don't have an iTunes account, but I have a huge stack of Cd's.
And that was an Andy Rooney like collection of random thoughts! lol
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danga
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Jent sorry about the delayed reply i have not had internet for a while.
First of all i would like to say i have gone out and bought o brother where art thou, my favorite movie that i have previously just downloaded. I am
also planning on purchasing other favorites that i have downloaded (star wars is at the top of my list currently.
I agree that this is a seemingly unsolvable problem if change is not made on an individual basis (making the only possible solution a massive
propaganda campaign). To do so (i believe) the entertainment industries will have to take a two part campaign by both persecuting as many people as
possible (to create fear) and get their icons (Bono?) to start a fight against pirating. This could lead to, while not an elimination, but a drastic
reduction in the amount pirated.
Romans 12:10 |
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jent
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no response about the third way? Propaganda and fear are what they are trying now....but that just can't work forever. The solution IMO is a better
product
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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danga
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A better product that could create desire to support it could work, but i dont think these companies would be able to do that efficiently. Just look
at how hard they worked on water world to ultimately fail.
Romans 12:10 |
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jent
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and thus they should fail....if they are not capable of adapting, then it is there own fault. The potential is there, it is not the downloaders that
should be blamed if they choose not to use some forward thinking.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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spank
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One random thought/input: why don't major record and movie companies begin to utilize p2p methods to distribute their product? Charge for access to
a closed community torrent tracker, the overhead for distribution is almost nothing plus all the benefits of "free" media i.e. getting an actors
entire career of films or an artist entire discography... just a thought
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jent
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spank,
to do that would require them to admit that there is value in something they have been very outspoken against....that just wont happen, humans have
too much pride
But I see no reason a new studio could not use that means. I think it is a great idea to do a ground up shift in the industry.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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danga
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I was thinking, and i do not believe that the music industry could likely be changed. Almost all of the entertainers in music do non monetary reasons
and require fiscal backing. On the other hand i believe the movie industry could be uprooted by pirating because of an enormous demand for money from
both the entertainers and the production. So if there is a continuation of pirating i would expect either for the movie industry to become more like
the sundance channel or for them to place advertising in all their work.
Romans 12:10 |
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jent
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they already place as much ads as they can into movies....and it drives me crazy.
I could not disagree more about the music industry being capable of changing. As I argued previously, they wont have a choice...they must change or
die. Just as you stated for the movie industry.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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LTTank
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Finally I get to this topic, read it, and am forced to make a comment.
I always believed that pirating was more than just "download and use"; I always considered that if you tried to sell the stuff downloaded, THAT was
piracy?
I myself have used torrents for MANY things I knew darn well I would never be able to afford: Some software, movies I've always wanted to see, TV
shows I missed, and etc. A couple were downloaded because my personal CD was ruined.
Once I'm done with things I don't intend to keep, it's deleted and no longer 'pirated'. (Just MY view.)
Yes there are a few programs I've obtained, and still use and have on CD, but I've no intention of making any money off them. Heck I've even had
people ask for FREE coppies of some things I have and I always said no, thinking that, too, was piracy in a way.
Am I off track in my thinking?
"What? No more cake and ice cream left? To hell with this, I'm outa here!" |
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jent
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I think it is a bit of rationalization in your case LTTank....what's the difference from sharing via the internet and sharing via real life? Your
sharing the media ether way, and giving them access to illegal content.
cheers,
jent d-_-b
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LTTank
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Well, yeah, when taken in that context. But what I meant was they (any and all that are apposed to sharing in the main stream) seem to always focus
mainly on the value, rather than the content. Hence the "problem with sharing because of profit loss" as apposed to "ok, let's all make it known
'it' is out there". At least that's how I perceive it?
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Crest21
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Honestly, I don't really care about movies...haha...(not my field)
Morally wrong but I think it's partially the music industry's fault for not providing better solutions to the problem.
I think if thee was less pirating there would be better music readily available to the public.
Regards
Crest
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spank
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"If there was less pirating there would be better music readily available..." please explain this further. I dont see how this could be the case.
The initial appeal for Napster (besides the free aspect obviously) was that all the crappy songs from an album could be ignored while the hits could
be downloaded alone. I would actually argue the opposite, the advent of p2p music sharing has caused mainstream pop artists to make their albums more
complete and well rounded instead of having one or two formulated hits burried in an album of crap. Besides the mainstream artists I think that p2p
has helped independet/unknown musicians make some kind of splash for themselves.
As for the movies I think that downloading them isn't necessarily any more immoral than the prices they charge for some showings @ a movie theater.
I, like millions of others, paid good money to see the second transformers movie in theater. That film was a giant advertisement/wet dream that the
studios made plenty of cash off of even though the movie sucked, HARD! Is it stealing for me to download it now even though I already got overcharged
once to see this crap? An odd side note, I ALWAYS pay to see movies in theaters. I have never snuck in to a movie, even when friends were doing it.
I have moral issues w/ taking up space in someone else's establishment but few qualms w/ downloading a movie, what an odd combination.
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Silva12
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It is wrong, although all it does is damage an industry that is thriving, giving it little consequences, but since it is done for selfish
entertainment i believe there is an utter lack of reason. With that said i think the punishments should be about equivalent to those of stealing a
small item from a store.
Regards
Silva
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Masone
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There is one better way to support your favorite band and that is to give them the money directly when you goto their show.
Regards
Masone |
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spank
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Masone
There is one better way to support your favorite band and that is to give them the money directly when you goto their show.
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Quoted for truth!
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1 Robot
![[*]](./images/sl-default/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
posted on 6-30-09 at 08:15 PM «:|:» 
