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Author: Subject: What Warrants Impeachment?
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[*] posted on 10-11-08 at 06:50 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote
What Warrants Impeachment?



Only two presidents in our nations history have been impeached: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton. Interestingly enough both men were Democrats and each was targeted by Republicans for political reasons. Johnson tried to defy power limiting legislation while Bill as we all know got some head from an ugly intern. With the last eight years of terrible, even tyrannical, leadership coming to a fitting close I want to know what you all think warrants a presidents impeachment? The Constitution outlines impeachment in article 1 sections 2 and 3: "the President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

The laundry list of reasons for Bush AND Cheney's impeachment is probably a mile long but here are a few reasons that make my list:
1)Allowing the largest most severe terrorist attacks on american soil in U.S. history. I honestly think that he had some level of personal involvement wheather it be orchistrating or just knowing of it and allowing it.
2)Willingly and continuously violating the constitutional rights of each and every U.S. citizens in the pursuit of "protecting our freedom".... what a fucking irony.
3)Purposely deceiving the american public to support an unjustifiable war: IRAQ. No WMD's, No Nucs, No ties what so ever to Al Qaeda!
4)Crimes against humanity: The unlawful holding and torturing of prisoners in guantanamo.
5)The raping and pillaging of the american financial system: the trickle down theory has always and will always be a lie perpetuated by the social and economical elite in this country. In less than a decade our national debt has double while at the same time we have increased most government spending and reversed a national surplus. Our tax dollars are not the personal piggy bank for the top 1% in this country!

IMO each of those five points could fall under Treason or Bribery. Our nation let one of the worst people in modern history hold our highest executive office for the past eight years and we are going to be paying for it for atleast another eight. I dont see how an extra-marrital affair warrants punishment when starting an illigal and immoral war does not... can anyone explain this one to me?


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[*] posted on 10-12-08 at 09:19 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


This was a good read, you brought up some great arguments spank

But IMO this is where checks and balances fail us. There is not a good enough, politically unbiased, procedure or body which can decide when to impeach a president or not. The hard thing is if you create something like that, then who oversees them?

+karma for the well thought out post


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[*] posted on 10-12-08 at 09:36 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


+karma Spank
well put
And jent dont lose hope in the system, the heart is in the right place with the constitution and the government form (president, congress, supreme court. It fails cause there are some jerks, like spank said, that want to mess it up just so they can kill people for money and power, that make it fail; the plane will crash if the pilot is not pointing the it at the ground.
It does need some tweaking to get it back to the right place, but i think it is doable.

once again spank well said


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[*] posted on 10-12-08 at 10:19 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


This is but one of the reasons I don't get into politics too much.
When I learned about the checks and balances, and the other things involved, I was a believer. Having seen my own country (seemingly) turn away from trying to make "We, the people" more comfortable, it's "Us, the ones in control" (which I am not one of apparently...)
Try to do the right thing, however, and you end up in trouble or worse. Just look at the ones that got shot; They were getting "in the way". (As far as I understand what I've read... Then again, maybe I'm reading exactly what 'they' want me to, huh?)
As for Spank's post, I agree. Was a good read!
:dshades:


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[*] posted on 10-12-08 at 11:25 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by spank
Only two presidents in our nations history have been impeached: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton. Interestingly enough both men were Democrats and each was targeted by Republicans for political reasons. Johnson tried to defy power limiting legislation while Bill as we all know got some head from an ugly intern. With the last eight years of terrible, even tyrannical, leadership coming to a fitting close I want to know what you all think warrants a presidents impeachment? The Constitution outlines impeachment in article 1 sections 2 and 3: "the President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

The laundry list of reasons for Bush AND Cheney's impeachment is probably a mile long but here are a few reasons that make my list:
1)Allowing the largest most severe terrorist attacks on american soil in U.S. history. I honestly think that he had some level of personal involvement wheather it be orchistrating or just knowing of it and allowing it.
2)Willingly and continuously violating the constitutional rights of each and every U.S. citizens in the pursuit of "protecting our freedom".... what a fucking irony.
3)Purposely deceiving the american public to support an unjustifiable war: IRAQ. No WMD's, No Nucs, No ties what so ever to Al Qaeda!
4)Crimes against humanity: The unlawful holding and torturing of prisoners in guantanamo.
5)The raping and pillaging of the american financial system: the trickle down theory has always and will always be a lie perpetuated by the social and economical elite in this country. In less than a decade our national debt has double while at the same time we have increased most government spending and reversed a national surplus. Our tax dollars are not the personal piggy bank for the top 1% in this country!

IMO each of those five points could fall under Treason or Bribery. Our nation let one of the worst people in modern history hold our highest executive office for the past eight years and we are going to be paying for it for atleast another eight. I dont see how an extra-marrital affair warrants punishment when starting an illigal and immoral war does not... can anyone explain this one to me?


First of all no american president has ever been impeached trust me, i can find evidence if you want, attempts have been made (Johnson was one vote away) but no one has ever been impeached. Also dont say there is an anti democrat conspiracy, andrew johnson was a moron, he destroyed lincolns dreams, and vetoed congress more than anyone else in history, also had his veto over ruled by anyone else in history. Nixon was a republican that would have stepped been impeached if he didnt resign.
Now onto the lsit
1) To quote frank herbert “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” The wheels were set in motion, and the only way he could have prevented it is a time machine, he had been in office for 9 months
2) I hate the patriot act just as much as you, but lets keep this in mind, we would have to impeach almost everysingle senator, in fact Fiengold was the only one to appose it (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00313)
3) I apposed the war from the beginning, but i apposed it because i thought the idea of a preemptive strike is bad, we thought they had wmd's and we went in, as simple as that.
4) Although Bush really made this a big deal Clinton was the one who started off shore torture, and i dont mind this too much b/c we arent nearly as bad as china
5) First of all you attack american economics, our system isnt perfect, but there is no way to attract business if we dont give incentives, right now our corparate tax rate is 41% chinas is 17%, i wonder why businesses are going over seas. I dont like the debt, and clinton with conservative economics got a surplus, besides that we have almost always had a debt because no politicians have the balls to vote against spending or for taxes. Highest deficit ever was with a democratic congress, this was a bipartisan effort

If you dont like a president say so, i think Reagan, Carter, Wilson, Johnson, Jackson, Madison, Monroe, Buchanan, and Van Buren were all awful presidents, some i wish got shot (or in the case of Jackson and Reagen, got shot again), but i recognize that they didnt do anything to get impeached (Johnson kinda did, but that was a trap)


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 10:03 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by danga
...[andrew johnson] destroyed lincolns dreams....

4) Although Bush really made this a big deal Clinton was the one who started off shore torture, and i dont mind this too much b/c we arent nearly as bad as china

Apparently you are destroying Lincolns dreams too....
"Stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." -Abraham Lincoln

You will always be able to find someone doing something worse than we are. But that does not make what we are doing right.


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 11:42 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by jent
Quote:
Originally posted by danga
...[andrew johnson] destroyed lincolns dreams....

4) Although Bush really made this a big deal Clinton was the one who started off shore torture, and i dont mind this too much b/c we arent nearly as bad as china

Apparently you are destroying Lincolns dreams too....
"Stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." -Abraham Lincoln

You will always be able to find someone doing something worse than we are. But that does not make what we are doing right.


Dreams are for idealist, i have accepted that perfection is unobtainable, so i try to settle with good.


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 12:50 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by danga
Quote:
Originally posted by jent
Quote:
Originally posted by danga
...[andrew johnson] destroyed lincolns dreams....

4) Although Bush really made this a big deal Clinton was the one who started off shore torture, and i dont mind this too much b/c we arent nearly as bad as china

Apparently you are destroying Lincolns dreams too....
"Stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." -Abraham Lincoln

You will always be able to find someone doing something worse than we are. But that does not make what we are doing right.


Dreams are for idealist, i have accepted that perfection is unobtainable, so i try to settle with good.


It makes me kind of sad to see someone loose "faith" or "hope" when the real world hasn't knocked on their door yet. Dont confuse DREAMS with PERFECTION, no dream is perfect. A person has seemingly total control over the realm of possibilities when dreaming but they still dont get the option to do whatever they want, shit we cant even change the lighting or read the writing on the wall as we dream... That being said I'm sure that even MLK Jr. would think that we have come farther than even his dream envisioned, but that doesn't mean we have gone far enough either.

Danga, I wasn't asserting that their was some kind of historical anti-democrat conspiracy I simply mentioned how I thought it was interesting that the only two presidents who had been impeached were both democrats being targeted by republicans. I would like to see this proof that no president has ever been impeached though, as I watched a president get impeached a decade ago. Being impeached is not the same as being removed from office, to be removed from office the president must be impeached first but if a president is impeached they may not necessarily be removed from office.

As for all my points you countered, I wasn't saying they were Truths but merely my reasons.
I watched the whole of 9/11 events in real time so I am just as entitled to my opinion as to the causes and perpitraturs as you :awink:
As for clearing out the whole of congress along w/ the executive branch for passing the Pat Act I sure as hell would! "Those who would trade Liberty for Security deserve neither" but the majority of the U.S. population wanted to feel a sense of security no matter the costs, it is up to our leaders to hold fast to solid ideals: Without liberty we have no security!
Bush's efforts to push us into war were obviously tainted. The idea of the Bush Doctrine is moronic at best so whatever reasons a person would have had at the time to not agree w/ the call for war are moot as almost nothing in this world justifies WAR. When someone does start a war they should be held accountable for the actions, the only accountability so far has been our countries financial burden.
As for Clinton starting torture abroad... um... proof please! The first president to have a term entirely past the end of the cold war being the one to start foreign based torture is laughable to me:duh:
Concerning economics: If your going to assert that clinton got undue credit for a surplus how can you say that Dems. help w/ the results of the last eight years when they had control of the the congress for only a year and some change? If you were right about corporations needing tax breaks to be profitable in the U.S. then why have some of the largest windfalls in our economic history taken place over the last eight years? The UPFRONT number for corporate tax rates might be 41% but you would have to be unbelievably naive or just plain stupid to think that big business has actually been forking over that much money for each fiscal year! You're absolutely right that politicians dont have the balls to vote for most spending cuts or tax increases but that is because the majority of most americans, their bosses, are stupid enough to think that taxes can be on a constant decreasing trend. All that being said I dont think that having some, SOME, national debt is a bad thing. Internatinal debt can help add stability to world markets when done in moderation, 10+ TRILLION dollars of national debt does not add any kind of stability.

The whole point of this thread wasn't to debate points but rather to get opinions! I gave a list supporting my opinion hoping that others would state their opinions as to what warrants impeachment.

P.S. Reagon wasn't shot directly, the bullet hit his armored car and ricocet'd into him. He is the only president to have been indirectly shot.


If we do not ask questions of the past, how are we to have answers for the future?


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 01:35 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


The dream thing was kinda a joke, sry i have always had problems with sarcasm, especially when it has been typed.
I stand with the most righteous (least evil) super power, and if we become as bad as china i will happily move to china (i have yellow fever)

I dont know if impeachment kicks people out of office, but what it does is make it so they can be tried as a civilian, my source that no president has ever been impeached is pat busteed, the AP history teacher at FCHS that many others on this forum would vouch for.

And i agree with you about the patriot act, every politician should be punished for it, just like every telecom company should be punished too.
Again i dont like war... But it was legal

Here is my clinton evidence, dont worry i dont have a wikipedia account, it is just easier to use wikipedia as a source than look one up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

I am saying that clinton was truly pro business and bipartisan, something we rarely see anymore, many extreme liberals actually attack clinton by calling him a conservative, that is why i believe he was a great president, he was actually bipartisan, something we havent seen for a long time (besides the patriot act)

Our corporate tax rate is that high, that is why businesses are going over seas, i woulnt actually mind taxing the rich more (income tax), if we stopped chasing away industry and business. As for bush, i do not think that he was an awful president, he just wasnt great, and got overpowered by the craphole we call washington, that is why i hope that mccain and bush will cause the republican party to fall apart and be rebuilt, focusing on economics and not any of this other crap.

Thank you for that reagen info (+ karma), wanna change it, i have a shovel you get a gun


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 03:48 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Two presidents have been impeached. All this means is the House voted to have the Senate Start trying the president that was impeached. It does not remove from office like spank mentioned.

I think danga is naive to think that Clinton was the start of that, although he probably did use it as well, nonsense of Extraordinary rendition.
It probably started way back in the 50's if not earlier, i know we used waterboarding on many of the polynesian islands.

Bush should be impeached for not faithfully upholding the office of the president and the constitution and protecting it from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC! For reason that i believe in, go find all the resolutions that Kucinich put forward to impeach both Cheney and Bush, in that order.

Also don't you guys think it is interesting that Pelosi is so against impeachment? lets us all remember the civics course we all should have taken in high school. Order of succession: Vice President, Speaker of the House(pelosi), president pro temp of senate, Secretary of State.. .
So my question is: if she stands to be president for taking two people out of office that obviously deserve it, then why hasnt she?


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 04:20 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Danga, I took AP U.S. history w/ Mr. Busteed when I was in high school; he is the fucking man, no doubt. I dont know why he would say that no president has ever been impeached though. Anyone who was paying attention during the Kenneth Starr investigation saw Bill Clinton ultimately get impeached... but never removed from office. Next time you see Mr. Busteed tell him that Spencer Cale said hello. He was one of the best teachers I have ever had so listening to what he has to say is a wise decision. Sorry I didn't see the sarcasm in your posts, I'm kinda slow like that. I would have to agree w/ you on Clinton being pro-business and bi-partisan. When it comes to Bush his incompetence makes him an awful president IMO. I hope that you are right concerning the republican party being rebuilt. I tend to be more libertarian leaning so if the republicans actually returned to being republicans I would definitely vote for them.

The problem w/ going after Reagan is that he is dead already.... but perhaps another president.


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 05:01 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


I was wrong, two presidents have been impeached, i was thinking of their trials, neither one got in trouble (johnson was one vote away though). Yes we ahve been torturing people for a long time, i know we waterboarded people in the early 1900's. Bush did a good a job at protecting us as possible, you cant eliminate terrorism because "an envious man thinks that if his neighbor breaks his leg he himself will somehow walk better." Trust me if the democrats could legitimately impeach bush for something they would have. Also busteed is the man, but he is retiring this year


also when i was referring to reagen i mentioned a shovel because i could dig him up. So how bout it?


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[*] posted on 10-13-08 at 05:43 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Im down to dig up a body or two, just make sure there is some whiskey handy during the process. + karma for the clinton info

Kevin, you raise some very interesting questions concerning pelosi and the order of succession for the executive office.


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