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Poll: Bailout
Strongly -------- 2 (18.18%)
Moderately ----- 1 (9.09%)
Indifference -------- 2 (18.18%)
Mild opposition ----------- 3 (27.27%)
Strong opposition ----------- 3 (27.27%)

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Author: Subject: Bailout
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[*] posted on 9-25-08 at 08:22 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote
Bailout



Do you support the bailout

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 08:47 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


That question is unbelievably ambiguous. It depends.

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 09:01 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


I agree with mig,....hope non of you banked with wa-mu.

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 11:10 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


If you agree with me give me some fucking karma god damnit. Have we forgotten what the SpicyLemons is all about?

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 12:58 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by mig
That question is unbelievably ambiguous. It depends.

+karma

but I think that there are ways that would still be better, even given the uncertain nature of it


cheers,
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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 02:00 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Sadly, I don't get into politics of any kind much.
Can't even go to church any more w/o finding it there...
**sighs**
...Society ruined the true nature of the word, IMHO.
(But I did cast a vote...)

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 05:49 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by jent
Quote:
Originally posted by mig
That question is unbelievably ambiguous. It depends.

+karma

but I think that there are ways that would still be better, even given the uncertain nature of it


precious karma... my lifeblood.

seriously, though, do you mean ways other than a bailout? did you have anything in mind? just curious. I don't pretend to fully grasp the situation and, frankly, i'm not terribly worried about it.


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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 08:59 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by mig
Quote:
Originally posted by jent
Quote:
Originally posted by mig
That question is unbelievably ambiguous. It depends.

+karma

but I think that there are ways that would still be better, even given the uncertain nature of it


precious karma... my lifeblood.

seriously, though, do you mean ways other than a bailout? did you have anything in mind? just curious. I don't pretend to fully grasp the situation and, frankly, i'm not terribly worried about it.


Well I was mostly waiting for spank to chime in because he is what inspired a lot of the feelings I have towards the bailout. As he put it "trickle down can work if you just pour tons on top"....but what I think would be better, would be to instead invest that money in infrastructure. Tell the stock holders so sorry, and just send the money directly to the middle class by improving road, telecommunications, and other infrastructure that can give us long term benefit. In addition that money will be going directly to the source, instead of giving rich people money money in hopes that they will make more jobs.


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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 10:03 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


The thing is we have let businesses die before, but these businesses represent and are the american currency, they are the american dollar. Wallstreet makes america, think about it everything else can be matched by 50 other countries, but wall street enables us to have such a great lifestyle (for minimal work).

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[*] posted on 9-26-08 at 10:45 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


I voted on this thread not long after it got posted but I was going to wait and see what others were feeling about the whole situation. The economy and politics have always been a passion of mine, usually to my detriment so all of the events of the recent weeks hasn't come as any sort of surprise and like most things I have an opinion on the subject.

Personally I think that with the "crisis" or situation at hand the best route to take would in all practicality be socialistic in nature but be a hybrid of both a "bailout" and a "stimulus package". With all the obvious shortcomings of our methods of business finally coming to a head we as a country no longer view inflation as a main concern pertaining to our economy. The majority of the rest of the world has either already said they're in a recession or have said they're heading into a recession (a fine line to be sure) but with that being the case we as a nation dont have to be AS concerned w/ inflation as before. Since taking out huge sums on our nations credit (credit meaning debt to be paid in the future by paying down the inflation caused by creating money out of thin air for today) seems the most obvious and easiest answer as it means we have so many more choices as to how to apply solutions. Liquidity in the business sector is a very valid concern, but capitalistic principals dictate that a poorly run enterprise should go out of business. Being poorly run isn't the case for all of the investment firms/banks in question they merely got caught holding the bag that we as citizens help to fill. Injection of money into the businesses that truly deserve and need it should take place but certainly not to the tune of $700 billion up front (which turns into more like $1 trillion when the instant inflation is taken into account). That being said, think of all the advancements that could be made in so many areas if we spent even tens of billions of dollars. If we as a nation couldn't achieve COMPLETE energy independence while at the same time doing it w/ almost entirely renewable methods for even $500 billion then we might as well throw in the towel right now because we are fucked. If we diverted healthy portions of our agricultural resources to VIABLE fuel crops like switchgrass and hemp and not to corn for livestock feed (yes we would have to pay more for meat) we could not only create hundreds of thousands of immediately fillable jobs but we would also take a HUGE leap ahead of most of the rest of the world in terms of scientific/ecological/economical expertise. Like Jensen has already mentioned we should invest in roads and highways (the Interstate fund went bankrupt last month and only remained solvent due to a congressional "bailout" bill) and lots of other infrastructure type spending. When you invest in infrastructure you get several fold returns on the money:instant creation of jobs, long term job viability to maintain that infrastructure, easier/new ways for business to take place (think internet), not to mention the increase in patriotism that stems from the workers that take home a sense of purpose and pride that they are helping their country grow.

Man, that was a whole lot of words... sorry. In short we should invest a few hundred billion in those investment firms/banks that truly need and deserve our help while at the same time go a ahead and spend several hundred billion in our current and future infrastructure that has been so poorly neglected over the past 8 years.


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 10:14 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by danga
wall street enables us to have such a great lifestyle (for minimal work).


how?


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 11:06 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Spank,
In a free market economy, which is what we claim to be, why would you support a communistic action towards these banks, which is what a bailout would be. But it would not a even that cause all we are doing is taking over the debt, as the American public and tax payer, so prop up companies that were poorly run. Then when they are back on their feet and making money we would then again privatize them. This to me makes no sense.
If you watch any of the many times that Paulson and Bernake talk they made it really clear that the system is the reason that this happened, not my words those came from Paulson's mouth. He said "The American people are already on the hook and the system put them there." Sept 23 2008 on CSPAN. Seems to me that if the system is the thing fucking us, then no amount of money will set this straight really. Putting this money into wallstreet is just going to push back the crash. They are not talking about making these companies more accountable, or punishing the CEO's, in fact the repubs are fighting a compensation cap LIKE THEY DESERVE ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!!, Also they stripped out the bailout for the homeowners. So basically this bailout is for big business and banks.
Why does the state care more about big business than the American people?
And just as a side note, the fiscal year for the government ends on Sept 30th, who is going to bail out the UNited States when the people loaning us decide to call in our 9.4 trillion and counting dollar debt??? The American Tax payer?


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 11:34 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


first of all these banks hold the american public's retirement... if they crash so does the american public. Yes the companies were not regulated, hindsight is 20/20, but we must fix it and then finally enact the regulations that even the republicans were supporting (Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005) and end these partisian politics. Also even if we bail them out it isnt a huge deal for the lower class, the bottom 50% of america pays like 1% of our taxes, this would have almost no effect on them. The upperclass isnt actually the ones that caused this. It was greenspan promoting his policy that "every american should own a house" telling clinton to remove (actually not renew, but same thing) the regulations from the 1989 savings and loan crisis. It was his attempt to give the lower class houses they cant afford that got us in this mess. Also the government will get a lot of this money back in like 10 years when they sell their shares of the companies

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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 02:07 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


i am not gonna say anything, but please read the articles, the first one is really short, and the second one is pretty short, but really informative.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/09/26/ap5475963.html?partner=alerts
and
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/09/27/ap5479334.html?partner=alerts


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 08:50 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by danga
first of all these banks hold the american public's retirement... if they crash so does the american public.


Hasn't the president already sent social security (I think this is what you mean by "banks holding the american public's retirement) has already gone down the toilet?

Quote:
Originally posted by danga
we must fix it and then finally enact the regulations that even the republicans were supporting (Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005) and end these partisian politics.


in your dreams.


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 09:07 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Kevin, like I stated in my post above I don't support a communistic action... it would be socialistic. If the Fed were to buy up all this debt (aka bundled mortgages) from the companies that are going under by no fault of their own I see it as a potential win for the country as a whole. The situation we find ourselves in now isn't, and this kind of pains me, entirely George W and his cronies fault. Citizens CHOSE to purchase homes that they had no intentions of being able to pay off, the expectation was that they would only need to make payments long enough to be able to turn around and sell to make a profit. There were enough shady Loan Officers out their approving these abhorrent purchases that for a while the market was almost self fulfilling, meaning homes were being purchased and flipped for a rather healthy profit and thus ARTIFICIALLY inflating the market value of most homes. With the markets artificially inflated so much many of those same greedy home owners were able to borrow against the inflated equity in their homes which they most commonly used for additional property acquisition. This all became one big circle jerk on the consumer end, on the Banking end it became something much worse. Because the market was already in a recession (believe me or not) the only market segment that was seeing any growth was real estate. With that being the only "quality" game in town a huge volume of investment firms tried to get in on it. The increase in deregulation allowed for original mortgage holders to bundle and resell loans to other investors. These bundles kept getting re bundled and sold off. Once the recession began to truly impact the average citizen and their discretionary income the real estate market came to a sudden halt then began its current decline towards normalcy. A select few of the investment firms that were holding these bundled mortgages knew that these assets they had purchased weren't worth nearly what they had initially paid but knowingly decided to falsely report/have reported the numbers they wanted. As a result the firms were able to maintain fake profit margins and continue on, it wasn't until they no longer had the option of falsely reporting that things came to light. If we had had more oversight the only thing that would be different today (assuming) would have been the seemingly sudden and severe failure of these firms. The housing market would have still gone through a period of artificial inflation followed by its collapse from the lack of funds due to the recession. The common underlying factor for all the major players (consumer, banks, government, and investment firms) was GREED! Our society as a whole helped to create this mess... not just the "fat cats" on wall st. or in Washington. That being said it is my opinion that society as a whole must take action. Tax payers must fork over some cash to settle the score, the lying firms must be put out of business, and the government as unlikely as it sounds needs to pull its head out of its own ass and start to take bold steps to create "transparency" and "oversight". Take a look at my original post and read what I thought really needed to be done fiscally.

Danga, I read both of those articles and only the second seemed to be of relevance. Was your point in the first article that because a billionaire supports the "bailout", that means the plan is inherently bad/wrong? If that is the case the the arguably the greatest investor of our time Warren Buffet is also wrong... The second article did seem to have the a bit of good insight. The critical different between Sweden and Japan as I saw it was that like U.S., Japan waited far too long to actually address and trying and solve the problem w/ their real estate market. Because of our inherent capitalistic nature here we are already seeing home/real estate values drop to the levels they would naturally be at. Once that market has finally come to its right place it will begin its natural ascension.

Sorry for another ridiculously long post everyone, I couldn't seem to be able to make it shorter even though I tried.


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 09:07 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by 9ofclubs
Spank,
In a free market economy, which is what we claim to be, why would you support a communistic action towards these banks, which is what a bailout would be. But it would not a even that cause all we are doing is taking over the debt, as the American public and tax payer, so prop up companies that were poorly run. Then when they are back on their feet and making money we would then again privatize them. This to me makes no sense.


good point....but we would never be able to keep them under government control I don't think. It would be good if we could though, these areas after the economy need more regulation, and I think most would now agree.

This is just one of many examples of things being privatized that shouldn't *health care* what happens if a plauge sweeps the nation, do you think our insurance companies could handle it? Another bailout? Is that all it is, private unless you fuck up? Maybe I am just mindlessly ranting, but sounds fucked up when you think of it like that. Not very reliable.


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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 09:18 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Jensen, your point about being private unless you fuck up isn't crazy at all. The republican leadership, if it gets it's way would be asserting just that. All the companies that knowingly screwed the pooch on this will be getting reimbursed so that they can keep doing business as usual! We all need to be a little more patient w/ time and just wait to see who and what the FBI investigation brings to the surface, could be far more menacing that anyone would be willing to admit.

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[*] posted on 9-27-08 at 10:02 PM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Ok, let me go ahead and ask a question:

Do you think things would be in better shape today if we never began printing more money than we had in gold/etc to back it up?


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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 12:22 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by spank
It would be socialistic.
Because the market was already in a recession
Was your point in the first article that because a billionaire supports the "bailout", that means the plan is inherently bad/wrong? If that is the case the the arguably the greatest investor of our time Warren Buffet is also wrong...


I deleted portions of the post because as he said it was ridiculously long
1st) it wouldnt be socialist, socialism is redistribution of wealth, you can have a strong federal government without redistributing wealth
2nd) a recession means the economy isnt growing or is shrinking and our economy has been growing so we have not been in a recession (will change)
3rd) Buffet supports the bailout as seen by this article http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/buffett-calls-bailout-bill-the-right-thing/

EVERYONE PLEASE SITE YOUR SOURCES (make sure they are not blogs too)


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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 12:24 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


also mig it is your blind partisan politics that cause necessary bills like this to fail. John McCain did support regulations and if you want you can look it up, i gave you the bill he supported, just google it and it will tell you the details.
also, yes bush hasnt been the greatest president ever, but we still have social security, that is why mccain wanting to privatize it is such a big deal.


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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 01:19 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


It's all about the three G's now...your Gun, your GOLD and your God (if you believe in that kinda thing)....day traders have ruined everything. Short term vs. long term goals, simple as that.

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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 06:31 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Danga, boy there are lots of things I would like to respond too but since I am at work atm I dont think I will be able too.

1)SOCIALISM: is an economic theory that advocates state or collective ownership/administration of production and distribution of goods. This is not to be CONFUSED w/ a socialist agenda which would include the redsitribution of wealth. Socialism was intended to be the transition method from captialism to communism according to Karl Marx.
2)RECESSION: if you feel the need to wait for the government (which lies in it's own interest all time) to tell you that we are in a recession then by all means go right ahead. As for your definition above, if the economy were SHRINKING then it would be in a DEPRESSION! I'm not quite ready to pass judgement on whether we're in a depression but my instincts are tending to lean that way.
3)I mentioned Warren Buffet after I thought that the first article you posted above was ment to discredit the "bail out" because a billionare supported it... so we were argueing for the same point, I think.

Lay off of the mig when it comes to blind political attacks. He is one of the most intelligent people I have had the fortune of knowing and he isn't as simple minded as you assert. He would never vote for something because of a party label... Something that I find funny coming from someone who clearly had only one agenda when it came to voting for a presidental ticket: a woman being on it! If you can honestly say that you would trust Sarah Palin w/ leading our country then serious questions need to be asked.
Considering sources, I read reutgers and bloomberg (among countless others) daily so for me to site all the sources that I am capable of remembering would take HOURS to refind. With that in mind I offer that my long term memory is my source.

A question for EVERYONE ELSE: why do you all keep taking karma away from Danga? She may take stances on things that we all dont agree w/ but that doesn't mean she should be "punished". Please everyone, try to remember that the Den is here to promote communication even if you dont like what you hear! Danga, ++++karma

SIDE NOTE: As of about 12:00 this morning a tentative agreement has been reached on the "Bail Out" plan. The only thing that remains is it's ratification by the house and senate. A new age of U.S. socialism is about to take place, is anyone else as excited as me?... lol Our country is in a whole lot of trouble, IMO.


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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 08:07 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by LTTank
Ok, let me go ahead and ask a question:

Do you think things would be in better shape today if we never began printing more money than we had in gold/etc to back it up?

The only reason I asked this was because a friend of mine was here reading this thread over my shoulder and pointed out our financial issues were partly to blame because we did in fact start producing more paper and coin than we had backing for. Other issues contributed to the downfall, yes, but this ONE issue didn't help.
I may not be up on a lot of things, but this does seem like a good question...
**smiles**
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[*] posted on 9-28-08 at 08:21 AM   «:|:»  Link to post Reply With Quote


LT Tank, you have a very good point. When the currency being used by a government no longer has some kind of standard backing it then it can lead to some serious problems. The short coming of that is when you have say a gold or silver standard you are limited by that standard too. Our average budget as country is well over a trillion dollars, there is just no way that we could spend that much and have it backed up w/ a gold or silver standard. When currency is no longer held to a standard it frees up a government to do lots of additional things when concerning inflation, whether it be to increase it or decrease. I wonder what kind buying power the U.S. dollar would have if it was still backed by a gold and silver standard? I actually have some bills from just after we lost that standard that says it is a "silver proof" bill, so I could go and collect a couple of dollars worth of silver if I was so inclined.

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